“LGBTQ” is an acronym in English for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer. This group often demands their rights under the bourgeois slogan of “human rights,” while also stigmatizing the term “comrade.” Some bourgeois “democratic” countries recognize them, whereas fascists oppose them. How should Marxists analyze which class this group’s ideology belongs to, and for what interests do different bourgeois factions support or oppose them?
@ProletarianSupremacism Previously saw Proletarian Supremacism (although I always felt this name was quite abstract) also asking about this it seems
I also saw him ask this and wanted to ask as well, I don’t understand LGBT.
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I find it strange because now some international revolutionary parties, such as the Communist Party of the Philippines and the Communist Party of India (Maoist), are supporting LGBT, saying it is against patriarchy. There are also videos on Bilibili of lesbian marriages among the Communist Party of the Philippines guerrillas. So why is LGBT considered reactionary?
There are revisionist lines within the Communist Party of the Philippines, and there are also some issues with the Communist Party of India (Maoist)'s statements, as well as possible misunderstandings regarding LGBT issues. Additionally, the Communist Party of India (Maoist) advocates for the elimination of pornographic culture.
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Regarding the issue of revisionist lines within the Philippine Communist Party, you can refer to the article I reposted. Although the translation quality is quite poor, and the content inside may not be entirely accurate, it is what it is. In the international communist movement, there have been continuous criticisms of the Philippine Communist Party, but mainly the struggle for unity persists.
Regarding the Indian Communist Party (Maoist), from the phenomena described in the book “Night March: Walking with the Indian Revolutionary Guerrillas,” it can be seen that they also have some issues, but the specific situation is not very clear yet. I originally wanted to write a book review, but I am currently working on other things.
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In fact, the self-identification standards of LGB are nothing more than whether one only has sexual thoughts about the same sex or about people of any gender. Using this bourgeois romantic notion of “sex equals love” to beautify oneself as “X-sexual” is actually unfounded.
At least as far as I know, most users in the gay online community openly follow bourgeois romantic views to engage in “mate selection” (or at least for softcore pornography) and even debauchery. For example, they naturally and confidently use whether others meet their pornographic aesthetic as the primary criterion for social interaction. As for the minority of users who do not openly follow this pattern, they are actually similar (and even if they don’t “judge by appearance,” they often use other standards for “matchmaking”) because LGBT itself is an extreme product of pornographic and anarchistic thoughts. I am a gay man myself, and recently I have thought somewhat about how my own sexual anarchist ideas developed, but I still don’t quite understand.
I don’t know much and have basically had no contact with lesbian matters. I only know that some bourgeois feminists advocate staying away from all men, and that women engaging in lesbian relationships with each other can escape gender oppression. Perhaps some women in that group are deceived, so the community atmosphere might be somewhat better?
As for T, it is probably even more extreme than LGB. Effeminate men and pseudo-females might be milder cases, while drug-using females and transgender people identify more deeply with this. I don’t know much about the decadence of these circles (because I have never been interested in them from a reactionary perspective, nor have I spent much effort understanding them critically), but I have heard that they often pursue making themselves more in line with bourgeois aesthetics (mainly white, young, thin) through drug use and even body modification. The pornographic thoughts are more severe. Obviously, the bourgeoisie can make huge profits from transgender surgeries and related drugs (after surgery, one must keep taking medication to maintain the appearance of the opposite sex). Also, there are many “MTF” (male to female) but apparently few “FTM” (female to male), probably related to the fact that male moral corruption and pornographic thoughts are much more severe than those of females.
Although male morality is generally corrupt in capitalist society, which might be used to defend LGBT, there are countless examples of sincere love between opposite sexes, but none are heard of among LGBT, which somewhat explains the issue.
Although I don’t yet know how to specifically argue this theoretically, this is the experience-based situation.
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Additionally, in ancient history, the phenomenon of “liking beautiful men” often existed only among members of decayed and reactionary social classes (although if one argues, they might say that related sexual aesthetics changed for some reasons, but ultimately it is all about pornography, essentially the same; it is just that in capitalist society, it is additionally dressed up with the guise of “freedom of love”). There are also voices opposing transgender people within the international communist movement, such as Germany’s magazine “Class Standpoint,” the Reconstruction Committee of the Communist Party USA (CR-CPUSA), and so on. The predecessor of the historical Revolutionary Communist Party USA (RCP-USA), the Bay Area Revolutionary Union, opposed LGBT, considering it individualistic, and prohibited LGBT people from joining the organization or would expel them.
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How are the thoughts of 19586 on being gay now?
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Currently, there are still recurring issues, and my homosexual pornographic aesthetic hasn’t changed much (I might still be attracted for 1 or 2 seconds to men who meet my aesthetic, except when I am particularly focused). Although I have reflected somewhat on my pornographic aesthetic, it is not rigorous or convincing enough—the appearance that best fits my homosexual pornographic aesthetic (the so-called “bear”) is often more common in parasitic, exploitative classes and strata (this body type inherently implies a decadent lifestyle, or at least problematic), and only these decadent groups have the capacity to pursue certain specific appearances in various aspects, which is easy to understand; but as long as (men) are not thin and weak, they generally somewhat fit my homosexual aesthetic (strength formed through physical labor also fits), and beards… as long as androgen secretion levels are normal, there will definitely be beards (although some people get “beard implants” to obtain beards that fit the homosexual aesthetic—like full beards or other shapes—but many people naturally have them, and there is also the saying that shaving more makes beards grow thicker, or that this is not exclusive to the exploitative class). Regarding these (or other aspects of my pornographic aesthetic), I am somewhat unsure how to analyze them, or rather, I know they ultimately stem from a pornographic aesthetic but do not know how to conduct a specific critique.
Additionally, I have long not fought lust and pornography from a proletarian worldview or proletarian morality (this does happen, but rarely), but rather in a petty-bourgeois or even bourgeois way of so-called “struggle”: for example, weighing pros and cons and deciding the harms outweigh the benefits, using the logic of “giving up fish to gain the bear’s paw” to try to sacrifice these things for something more important; holding a commodity exchange logic thinking that since others are doing it, I must act or feel guilty; sometimes, when emotions explode or in a frenzy, avoiding it for a while and substituting with other low-level interests… and so on. Using this “temporary coping, accommodating immediate changes, accommodating minor political shifts, forgetting the fundamental interests of the proletariat, forgetting the basic characteristics of the entire capitalist system and its evolution, sacrificing the fundamental interests of the proletariat for actual or conceivable short-term gains”[1] method, without carrying out ideological struggle in a Marxist way, it is impossible to completely eradicate pornographic thoughts, and at best only maintain intermittent relapses of varying lengths. Recently, I keep thinking that before encountering homosexual pornography, I only wanted to find a man compatible in interests and personality to live with—which is also a kind of sexual anarchism, and pursuing sexual relationships or sexual pleasure is actually forgetting the original intention, although this idea is also not proletarian in nature.
During the relapses, I found that the intensity of sexual pleasure seems proportional to the severity of pornographic thoughts. When I reflect more deeply on homosexual thoughts or learn of others’ more incisive critiques of pornographic thoughts, the intensity of sexual pleasure (or psychological and physiological pleasure) during relapse and homosexual pornographic practice weakens, and the “attraction” to pornographic practice is less than before. This is probably because social movement determines biological movement; a certain organ (or another organ liked to be “developed” by other LGBT groups) is originally just more densely innervated and does not naturally produce sexual pleasure (different from another organ, but even for the latter, without pornographic thoughts, sexual pleasure is generally not strong). It is because pornographic thoughts react on the body that sexual pleasure arises when externally stimulated. I recall that long ago, when I had little pornographic thought, occasional masturbation did not produce much sexual pleasure; it was through contact with and acceptance of homosexual pornography that I gradually became addicted. Although I do not know if my thinking is correct, currently I believe that in the long term, as long as I persist in labor reform and change the decadent mental state caused by a long parasitic life through some fulfilling activities, under gradual proletarianization, overcoming pornographic thoughts is not impossible.
—Lenin: “Marxism and Revisionism,” Selected Works of Lenin, Volume 2, 1972 Chinese second edition. ↩︎
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@Proletarian Humanity Supremacy
The following screenshot and quote illustrate what the so-called “love” between homosexuals supported by the Philippine Communist Party:
“The first time I saw her, I was stunned. Diana had just finished her shower and hadn’t combed her hair yet. I immediately fell in love with her,” Mei Mei said with a foolish smile on her face.
Looking through the words and lines, what kind of love is this? It is both a “foolish smile” and being “stunned,” essentially just lustful desire. Whose class does this lustful love belong to? Could it be the proletariat? This is consistent with the view expressed in 19586 above, which does not emphasize common practice or the development of general or specific class feelings through shared practice, but instead talks about being “stunned” by someone’s appearance and falling in love. In essence, this kind of homosexual love is just a form of bourgeois ideology.
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Taking China as an example, the vast majority of the LGBTQ community are from the upper petty bourgeoisie or bourgeoisie, and most of them live a life of unearned income. In fact, I encountered some so-called “drug girls” a long time ago. They claim that their thoughts are those of women, but they were born with male bodies, so they undergo gender transition to make their bodies align with their “souls,” which sounds very appealing.
However, when asked what a female soul is, they cannot explain it. Let’s look at the direction in which they transform their bodies. Many drug girls, after gender transition, only a very few can, by various means, become “beautiful women” that conform to bourgeois aesthetics. Many drug girls become very deformed and ugly due to both unearned income and the effects of the drugs on their bodies. Their ultimate goal is just to transform themselves into “beautiful women” that conform to bourgeois aesthetics. Their behavior exposes the ugliness of their souls. It turns out that they are not men with women’s souls inside male bodies, but rather men whose bodies prevent them from selling their bodies as prostitutes. Therefore, they use modern bourgeois biological science to transform themselves so that they can become prostitutes and sell their bodies.
Currently, no political views of any LGBTQ group overlap with the interests of the working class.
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My view is that by exposing the idealistic logic of so-called “trans women,” one can reveal the reactionary nature of this ideology.
First, claiming to have a female mind but a male body and saying one was born into the wrong body is essentially an acknowledgment of a priori idealism, which holds that the mind or soul exists objectively and independently of matter. It also implies that thought is detached from practice, that a person has a fixed mindset before birth, which is then expressed through the body after birth.
Second, the proposition of “male mind” and “female mind” itself is problematic. Because a person is the sum of all social relations, human thought only comes from acquired practice and is not determined by gender. The phenomenon of ideological differences between male and female groups in society is caused by gender contradictions stemming from social systems. The stereotypes about gender in capitalist society serve to uphold the rule of capitalist patriarchy, which is what is commonly referred to as inherent thinking of a certain gender. Therefore, if one claims to be born with the mindset of a certain gender but in the wrong body, and thus seeks to align the body with this mindset through gender transition, then extracting the idealistic logic here means trying to conform one’s body to the gender stereotypes of capitalist society. The sole purpose of this is to satisfy the bourgeois hedonistic lust.
@乱云 @无产人类至上主义
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Videos about LGBTQ online, such as those about effeminate men, are all of that kind of pornographic aesthetic. So you can see that there is no abstract, innate gender, only concrete thoughts formed under certain social conditions. Moreover, the mindset of gay men generally arises because the pornographic thoughts have become so severe that ordinary oppression of women can no longer satisfy them, leading to a more reactionary, twisted sadistic and oppressive mindset built on the oppression of women. Here I can use my own example to explain:
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I think the examples you provided are extremely abnormal in the context of transgenderism. Your analysis is based on an absurd allegory. Your attitude is akin to positions like “class stance”—they have also proposed defensible critiques of transgender analysis, but the difference lies in your imagination and blatant vulgarity, which add no value to your analysis. More importantly, the key distinction is that you psychologize the transgender phenomenon rather than examine how transgender identities are concretely conceptualized and then transformed into values, norms, and even ideologies. You attribute the core issue to innate factors rather than historical determinism. Therefore, your analysis not only deviates from the mainstream Marxist perspective on transgender issues but also dangerously falls into a mechanistic trap in a new way.
Sorry I used DeepL for communication. Thank you.
Sorry, this kind of ideology has a class basis. Do you understand? It does not refer to the psychological level of class basis, which is a distorted perspective. This ideology has a class foundation; it reflects the tendency of transgender people as products of historical determinism, but this tendency itself originates from inherent contradictions in the overall physiological and cognitive development process of individuals — not from their psychological level. Therefore, being transgender is not a subjective choice. However, in today’s world, understanding one’s transgender identity usually requires the perspective of bourgeois ideology, or at least this is the mainstream cognitive tool. I hope my explanation is clear enough.
可能是因为翻译软件的问题，我不太能看懂你这两段话的意思，一方面是没有看懂你不认同我的哪些观点，一方面是没有看懂你自己的观点。我看到你发的这两段话后的理解是，你反对我“将跨性别现象心理化”，“将问题本质归因于先天因素而非历史决定论”。我能明白你这句话是想说我的观点是唯心主义的，没有从物质决定意识这一马克思主义的基本原理出发。但是我在前面并没有表达过任何唯心主义的观点。我前面回复jqr的那段话，正是要反驳中国社会上流行的所谓“男性的身体，女性的灵魂”这种认为人的思想来自于性别的先验论的唯心主义观点。我前文的核心观点就是“性别是天生的，但是没有由性别决定的思想，人的思想来自于他自己的实践。资本主义社会对人的性别存在刻板印象，那些选择跨性别的人，大部分情况下是首先认同了这种刻板印象，然后为了使自己的身体符合这种刻板印象，才去选择成为跨性别者。”我认为你可能有些地方理解错我的意思了。你可以将你的观点使用母语原文发出来吗？我自己使用翻译软件看一下。另外，如果你要使用翻译软件，我推荐使用Chat-GPT，它更为准确。
关于你说的“成为跨性别者并非主观选择”，这句话要看如何理解。跨性别现象确实是一个历史性的客观现象，不是一个纯粹个人的、主观的问题。但是，不能否认跨性别者自身的思想中的问题，因为人是具有主观能动性的。成为跨性别者的人，他自己就是在一定的实践中产生了这种思想，基于这种思想，进而选择成为跨性别者。如果否认这一点，就相当于说人类完全是被客观规律所支配而没有任何个人意志。就好像马克思主义者在评判一个英雄人物的历史作用时，一方面不能片面地强调他的个人作用，而应该指出他是在一定历史条件下的必然产物；一方面不能否认他本人的思想及他的个人行为所造成的影响。你还说“但在当今世界，要理解自身跨性别身份通常需要借助资产阶级意识形态的视角，或者说至少这是主流认知工具。”这句话更是存在错误。马克思主义者分析任何事物都应该遵循基本的阶级立场，不能站在资产阶级的立场上去思考。你说要理解自身的跨性别身份需要借助资产阶级的意识形态，这句话本身就背离了马克思主义的阶级立场。你的这段话给我一种想要论证跨性别者的主观上完全没有任何错误的思想，并且在分析问题时依附于资产阶级的意识形态而不是坚持独立自主的马克思主义原则的感觉。
Regarding why fascists attack and persecute the LGBTQ community, I can’t quite figure it out for now, but I believe this opposition from fascism is definitely a kind of false opposition. Just like how Hitler loudly proclaimed the extermination of Jews while secretly wanting to support Zionists in establishing the reactionary state of Israel to enslave the people of the Middle East, and how some bourgeois popular arts and bourgeois books from Britain, America, and France were attacked as “decadent art” while more reactionary fascist culture was widely promoted in Germany.
It is a false opposition. Many well-known fascists, such as Nick Fuentes, are gay. Their apparent opposition to LGBT is also because LGBT is too openly involved in pornography, so they pretend to oppose it to disguise themselves. For example, when the Nazis talked about massacring Jews, in fact, the Jewish people as an ethnic group did not really exist; they just found any excuse to carry out mass killings and suppress the masses.
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It is possible, after all, fascism still needs to deceive the people. Perhaps it takes advantage of the general spontaneous aversion of the masses towards the LGBT movement to promote fascism?
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